@'itzatwist': > It sounds like you will need to set up a precise regimen, ansony. You know, strain/amount/time of day. When you have this regimen set in place you can begin to slowly taper it down if it is your intention to stop using kratom altogether. Also, I would advise not using any of your Whites, at least until you get your anxiety issue tamed. I say this because Whites are energetic to almost edgy, you know, like too much caffeine. I, personally, cannot use Whites for that very reason. So, just set the Whites aside for now, ok? > > _Now, for an example of a good regimen of schedule … _ > > _Morning_; take a teaspoon (~3 grams) of one of your Greens & please use an actual measuring spoon, not those giant spoons you have, lol. If you have a scale make certain the amount is approximately 3 grams. > > _Noon'ish_; take a teaspoon (~3 grams) of another one of your greens. > > _Late afternoon_: Begin to move into your Reds by taking 1/2 teaspoon each of a Green & a Red. The total amount should still be ~3 grams, so 1 1/2 grams of each. I know this can be tricky but I also know you can do it. > > _Night_: take a teaspoon (~3 grams) of one of your Reds. Try to choose one of the most relaxing Reds you have. > > This adds up to a total of around 12 grams per day. Once you get comfortable on the schedule you create for yourself then you can begin your taper. > > Has anyone ever given you the very general Rule of Thumb regarding strain colors?  > I will put it here, just in case.  > > _Reds_; Moderate pain relief (the best of all the colors), relaxing (the most relaxing strain color), long legs (long duration of effect).  > > _Greens_; Middle-of-the-road, slightly less pain relief than the Reds, uplifting, medium to long legs. > > _Whites_; Very little to no pain relief (least of all the colors), energetic to edgy (too edgy for many people, especially those suffering from anxiety & insomnia), very short legs (shortest legs of all the other colors). > > Let me know what your actual regimen is & how you are doing with it, ok? > Recently I had a client that loved white vein M.S.  He would buy lbs at a time and it seemed like he couldn't get enough.  Recently he went to the E.R. 2 x in one week for anxiety attacks.  I always follow up with clients to see how my regimen works for them, but he had actually been taking Kratom longer than I have.  Once I discovered he was having issues, I recommended removing white strains altogether.  He didn't like the idea, but fortunately I opened his mind to the concept.  I recalled reading how ITZA was hypersensitive to white vein strains causing "crippling anxiety" and I kept on him to cut out the white.  He began his own research and discovered that although white strain Kratom is very strong, very heady, providing lazer-beam focus at times, it also can cause anxiety.  Now he loves green, feels relief again from Kratom with significantly lower dosing.  He buys much less Kratom now and we are both happier for it.   Less is more!   I like yellow/gold and super indo for night time.   The super indo really knocks out the pain for me, and the gold makes me lay my head down within 20 min of consumption (toss and wash).  Keep in mind with reasonable dosing, you can hope to sleep up to 4-5 hours comfortably.  It won't get you through 8 hrs of sleep if you having trouble, but it's better than the 3 hours you've been getting.

oh, "gold vein" refers to a possibly less than fully mature that has been dried /fermented / processed in such a manner that the leaves lose their chlorophyll (turn yellow) gold. Please chime in with wisdom and clarity as I have never held one of these "gold vein " leaves before that had not been floured and flown in. I know they work for me. I usually have to wake up and relieve my self following an appropriate hydration schedule. This gets me 4 straight hours at least. Often I will re dose, re hydrate, and hit the hay again with no trouble getting up in time to get to work.

@'ansony': > :cry: I've been taking 15 to 25 gms of kratom daily for post op. joint surgery. I took it for about 6 weeks. I took an occasional day off and took prescribed opiates instead. I was told opiates are usually taken for 6 weeks. So I've been dinging my opiate receptors for about 7 weeks (one week in the hospital on oxycodone). The last day I took kratom was Sunday. I took around 25 gms. Monday night I slept very little. Now Tuesday evening I'm feeling anxious and a little depressed. Anyone go through this? Can you tell me what to expect? I'm drinking some Kava but it helps very little. I guess it's better then opiates but!!!! A little bummed. Thanks in advance!!!!!! ansony,            I know exactly how you feel.  I have read that working out will boost your endorphins and this may help with the depression.  Maybe try valerian root or St. Johns Wart (can't remember which one) and check out other vitamins to help with the anxiety.  You are doing great and should be proud of yourself, it will get better it just takes time.  Good Luck!  Maxxlove

@'DK': > Recently I had a client that loved white vein M.S.  He would buy lbs at a time and it seemed like he couldn't get enough.  Recently he went to the E.R. 2 x in one week for anxiety attacks.  I always follow up with clients to see how my regimen works for them, but he had actually been taking Kratom longer than I have.  Once I discovered he was having issues, I recommended removing white strains altogether.  He didn't like the idea, but fortunately I opened his mind to the concept.  I recalled reading how **ITZA was hypersensitive to white vein strains causing "crippling anxiety"** and I kept on him to cut out the white.  He began his own research and discovered that although white strain Kratom is very strong, very heady, providing lazer-beam focus at times, it also can cause anxiety.  Now he loves green, feels relief again from Kratom with significantly lower dosing.  He buys much less Kratom now and we are both happier for it.   Less is more!   I like yellow/gold and super indo for night time.   The super indo really knocks out the pain for me, and the gold makes me lay my head down within 20 min of consumption (toss and wash).  Keep in mind with reasonable dosing, you can hope to sleep up to 4-5 hours comfortably.  It won't get you through 8 hrs of sleep if you having trouble, but it's better than the 3 hours you've been getting. Well said, DK, & I am glad the guy you are talking about followed your advice regarding the White Veins. Just to clarify, my existing condition is the "crippling anxiety" & while I truly am hypersensitive to White Veins because they absolutely antagonize that condition rather than help, they didn't _cause_ the existing condition. _I so wish it was that easy_ :dodgy: Kind of a double-whammy there; the return of my condition (crippling anxiety) with the additional edge (jaw clenching, teeth grinding) of the White Veins. Some people are fine with Whites but if anyone is having a seeming return of their anxiety &/or experiencing anxiety for the first time my first question is always, "Are you using White Veins?". Again, I am very glad to see that your guy listened to your guidance & it helped him. That is always a good feeling, don't you agree?

@'ansony': > :cry: I've been taking 15 to 25 gms of kratom daily for post op. joint surgery. I took it for about 6 weeks. I took an occasional day off and took prescribed opiates instead. I was told opiates are usually taken for 6 weeks. So I've been dinging my opiate receptors for about 7 weeks (one week in the hospital on oxycodone). The last day I took kratom was Sunday. I took around 25 gms. Monday night I slept very little. Now Tuesday evening I'm feeling anxious and a little depressed. Anyone go through this? Can you tell me what to expect? I'm drinking some Kava but it helps very little. I guess it's better then opiates but!!!! A little bummed. Thanks in advance!!!!!!  What strain of Kratom are you taking?

Various in the am. Reds early evening

Day 16 finally got a decent natural night sleep!!! It really was a battle for a while!!!!! Not sure I would do it again at least not the amount I was. Maybe 5 grams in the AM and 5 in the PM if I could do it over again. Maybe tapering more would have been less painful but I wanted to be good to go back to work in a couple weeks. Live and learn!

@'ansony': > Day 16 finally got a decent natural night sleep!!! It really was a battle for a while!!!!! Not sure I would do it again at least not the amount I was. Maybe 5 grams in the AM and 5 in the PM if I could do it over again. Maybe tapering more would have been less painful but I wanted to be good to go back to work in a couple weeks. Live and learn! Hey, ansony, learning is the silver lining, yes? Pretty much everything I have learned that had real value was thru experience & many of them tough. I am very pleased to see that you are doing so well  :shy: Congrats!

@'DK': > oh, "gold vein" refers to a possibly less than fully mature that has been dried /fermented / processed in such a manner that the leaves lose their chlorophyll (turn yellow) gold.   Please chime in with wisdom and clarity as I have never held one of these "gold vein " leaves before that had not been floured and flown in.  I know they work for me.   > > I usually have to wake up and relieve my self following an appropriate hydration schedule.  This gets me 4 straight hours at least.  Often I will re dose, re hydrate, and hit the hay again with no trouble getting up in time to get to work. I wouldn’t get to hung up on vein colors. Nobody really knows what color vein your getting. It’s all up to the farmer and vendor to throw labels on the batches. If you have a smaller micro vendor then you can be confident. But these huge online retailers with $70-$100kgs. Forget it! Golds and yellows are supposed to be on the mellow side. Best is to sample a bunch of different strains and see what’s working. Problem with our industry and this being a plant and not a manufactured item, is batches vary. So a relaxing ‘red bali’ from ‘Vendor ABC’ bought on may 26 2018 maybe the most relaxing and perfect strain for you. Then you go to buy the same exact strain from the same vendor 4 weeks later and it reacts different.  Definitely takes some time to get adjusted to the game. My suggestion is deal with small micro vendors. But small samples ($20) if something works, don’t hesitate; contact the vendor and load up right away.  PM me for some micro vendor suggestions

@'itzatwist': > I can't help but think that the biggest "loss" for you would be the ritual, Rob.  > > If I had not naturally tapered off as my pain decreased the sudden loss of the ritual would proly have been far more pronounced. However, considering my past addictions & my other completely unrelated but entrenched habits, I am _definitely_ a "creature of habit". As such, to abruptly stop using kratom, the loss of my ritual would be the extent of my discomfort that relates directly to kratom. Why did I put it that way? Because I would, more than likely, return to my pre-existing condition the "dark place", a clutching fist that is my personal hell … paralyzing anxiety. > > This is why I have absolutely no intention of, willingly, discontinuing my kratom use. I have made that choice & I am completely at peace with my decision. Rituals/routines are hard to break for people like us. And I would definitely struggle with a different routine. In the near future I’m going to do a gradual taper and jump off just to see what it’s like. I need to formulate my own opinion on the matter as you already did this yourself and know what to expect. Don’t forget about anticipation, back when we all used to be hooked on H or O, the anticipation of w/ds were torture all in itself

@'Rob83': > Rituals/routines are hard to break for people like us. And I would definitely struggle with a different routine. In the near future I’m going to do a gradual taper and jump off just to see what it’s like. I need to formulate my own opinion on the matter as you already did this yourself and know what to expect. Don’t forget about anticipation, back when we all used to be hooked on H or O, the anticipation of w/ds were torture all in itself Yes, it is, Rob. We have been thru true physical withdrawals, some of us multiple times which makes the mere thought of encountering them once again very real & very unpleasant. Also, as you Biz & I have discussed a number of times, the ritual is immensely important to us, very strong is the urge to not break with any of our established rituals. To be entirely honest, the first time I quit kratom after using it for pain management during my "broken back saga" tapering just came about naturally & here is how: As you already know, I searched out an alternative for the potent pain meds I was being prescribed because I was terrified of getting sucked back into my severely unhealthy relationship with opiates. My research led me to kratom& it worked amazingly well for me. Ok, fast forward past my lumbar fusion surgery & into my recovery. I continued to utilize kratom during my recovery from surgery & as I needed less & less kratom to manage the pain I just naturally & slowly tapered back on it until one day I no longer needed it at all. My surgery was highly successful so I did not suffer any of the residual pain & problems that many others who have had back surgery do. Once I tapered my kratom use to nothing I just let it go, no harm, no foul, no uncomfortable effects … nothing. I went without for several years until I hit some very rough times which left me with crippling anxiety & the rest is history. Point of my story? I believe very strongly that folks like us do get very dependant on the ritual of using & breaking that ritual can be extremely difficult. For myself, I believe it is best to make peace with that fact & plan accordingly. I am fortunate to have experienced quitting kratom, especially since it was so natural & easy. The only discomforts I can imagine happening are 1\. Returning to the condition you were using kratom to alleviate (ie: chronic pain, debilitating anxiety, etc); 2\. Experiencing the PAWS associated with your DOC that your kratom use has been alleviating.

@'itzatwist': > If I am reading this correctly, you were taking Oxy concomitantly with the kratom & seeing that it was for post-op pain the oxy is discontinued so now you are tapering down your kratom also. Is this about the size of it, ansony?  > > In my experience, it takes a short amount of time for prescription medications, such as oxy, to develop both a tolerance & that nasty "need" factor. Also, as far as "dinging" your opiate receptors, Oxy has a far more powerful "ding" than kratom ever will as in, it binds faster, stronger & longer to the opiate receptors which is why it is almost useless to take kratom along with oxy. The oxy binds quickly & strongly to most, if not all, of your opiate receptors allowing most of the kratom to just pass on thru unbound, due to a lack of opiate receptor sites left to bind to. Because of the fact that the oxy binds to these receptors far longer than kratom, the time span between oxy & kratom must be considerable. What I am trying to make clear is that much of the time that you were taking the 2 together, oxy & kratom, very little of the kratom was binding to & activating (dinging) your opiate receptors because the oxy was hogging all the opiate receptor sites. Even if you separated your oxy & your kratom by a few hours, chances are very good that the oxy was still hogging most of your opiate receptor sites so again, most of the kratom passed thru your system without binding to & "dinging" anything. > > So, during the 6 weeks, you have been using kratom extremely little of the kratom has been able to be utilized by your system. In other words, I would look for another explanation for your lack of sleep & anxiousness like maybe the oxy? Remember though that there are many active alkaloid compounds in kratom and that they bind to more than just mu-opioid receptors. At high enough concentrations their effects through stimulation of other receptors not affected by opiates like oxy would certainly be significant for some people. I think it's a lot more complex than just saying you're not getting anything from kratom while on opiates.

I like to dial in on a vein color, in a batch. Once I find something I like, I usually already have it and that's when I discover I'll be keeping a lb or more. When I have a feel for what I understand to be the effects of a particular strain, I share it with a colleague or two. After i have some consistent feed back that a product is good, a relationship with a good honest farmer can pay off and I'll be able to score 5 or more kilos from the same yield. Then, the trick is to share it with enough friends to use it while it is still very potent. Most Kratom Dealers will tell you what you want to hear, and it's not always the truth. Personally, I like Super Green. It's not even the strongest Kratom I have tried, but It gives me sustained energy. I deal with ulcer pain daily as well and the Super Green is easy on my stomach. Everybody is different and so, like Itza said, get some samples, and start with reasonable dosage amounts.